Hi again Gary and many thanks for your advice above (and also in the other thread).
Yes, HMRC response is indeed interesting (this is why I was hoping to check out with Toytown).
I have asked HMRC for clarification regarding the change (which they referred to) in August 2017 and what arrangements were in place prior to this date.
FYI My French pension is a basic State pension (“retraite de base” under the general scheme and amounts to less than €300 p.a. As you suggested I now assume this to be liable to UK income tax under Article 23 DTA France/UK (Other Income).
I will follow up on your advice and contact RiA Neubrandenburg by phone (the website is pretty comprehensive). Have you any idea whether they will still hold a record of my previous tax number and a record of my DRV pension history since 2013 (or should I approach DRV for this) ?
Many thanks HMRC Admin 32
just to be absolutely clear - both French and German pensions are basic social security entitlements and neither is classified as a "Government" pension per se (i.e. for Government service).
1 French pension – “retraite de base du regime general”
Since the pension is a basic social security pension can I take it that Article 23 (other income) will apply and tax is therefore liable in UK?
2 German social security pension - DRV Altersrente.
I note what you say above about the German state (social security) pension above - being “now only taxable in Germany from 1 August 2017 under Article 17 of the UK / German double taxation agreement”.
What was the situation prior to August 2017? Was tax previously payable in UK ? What exactly is the significance of 1 August 2017 with respect to the taxation of (German) pensions?
3 FYI I have been declaring – and paying UK tax on - my German pension via UK self assessment as foreign income since 2013 following advice received at that time.
I note your advice above on how to re-claim tax for 21&22 and 19&20 and request further guidance on how to claim back UK tax paid via Self Assessment prior to this time (i.e. to 2013)
Many thanks in anticipation.
I receive a German social security pension (DRV Berlin) and a very small French social security pension (Carsat Normandie) from past employment (as a teacher in France and Germany). Until now I have declared both pensions in UK (through Self Assessment) and paid tax in the UK as a UK resident.
(1) However I have now been led to believe that the German pension may only be taxable in Germany (DTA 17(2)) although I have received no formal communication to this effect from the German tax authorities.
Can anyone confirm where tax is payable and, if in Germany, advise me on action regarding past payments made to HMRC through Self Assessment?
(2) The above has made me uncertain as to where my French pension is taxable (and if in France, where exactly to declare this and how tax is calculated for non-residents of France). (I find the advice in the DTA UK/France confusing - I presume that Article 18 DTA UK/France only applies to French residents; Article 19(2) applies to "Pensions and other similar remuneration paid by, or out of funds created by, a Contracting State or a local authority thereof, or, in the case of France, a statutory body,to an individual in respect of services rendered to that State, authority or statutory body shall be taxable only in that State. However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the individual is a resident and a national of that State without being also a national of the first-mentioned State"; and Article 23 refers to all "Other Income" which might include other pensions not included in the other Articles.
Which Article is relevant in my case, where is tax payable and, if in France, can anyone advise me on how tax is calculated for non-residents and on action regarding past payments made in UK through Self Assessment?
I look forward to hearing from anyone with knowledge of the taxation of foreign pensions/income or who may have had similar experience in the past.
Many thanks for your advice Gary - my brain is beginning to hurt!
From your response (above) am I right in thinking that I should complete Box 19 (SA return) with the wording - as you suggest in the thread above - that (1) I receive a DRV pension taxable only in Germany but (2) also complete the Foreign pages with details of my French Social Security pension as taxable in UK (this will complicate matters somewhat, especially going back over the past years !)
Re Toytown I followed your advice about disabling Java and trying to register but this time got a message to the effect that I should install Java in order to complete the security (pictures). Any suggestions?
I am disappointed that I have received no response from HMRC regarding my specific queries (above) regarding my small French social security pension and will raise this again in a new thread in the hope that it will get a response from HMRC along with their interpretation of the DTA and hopefully some clarification. (I note that the DTA UK/France Article 23 (1) which you quoted above deals with " Other Income" whilst Article 18 "Pensions" and Article 19 "Government Service". (I should clarify that I spent a year as a teaching assistant in France as part of an official exchange scheme). I presume that Article 18 applies only to French residents and Article 19(2) applies "Pensions and other similar remuneration paid by, or out of funds created by, a Contracting State or a local authority thereof, or, in the case of France, a statutory body,to an individual in respect of services rendered to that State, authority or statutory body shall be taxable only in that State. However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the individual is a resident and a national of that State without being also a national of the first-mentioned State". Then there is the Article 23(1) you refer to dealing with "Other Income". Have you any idea which Article is relevant to my case?
1 Hello and many thanks to all for the helpful information provided on taxation of German pensions in UK especially HMRC, Gary C, Jea and others.
1 I have tried (unsuccessfully) to register on the Toytown Germany website in order to raise my own particular pension issues there – is the site still active? If no longer open to new members, can anyone suggest an alternative forum where similar tax issues can be raised for discussion?
2 My own personal situation is as follows: after 5 years working on the German net and 1 year in France (many, many years ago !), I started to receive a German State pension (DRV) in 2013 and a smaller French Pension from CARSAT (Assurance Retraite Normandie) in January 2014. (Both paid in Euros to my German bank). My wife also started to receive a DRV pension in 2020.
I have now become aware that my German pension is taxable at source in the “Kassenstadt” (Germany) DTA 17.1 and also how this is calculated (as beschraenkt steuerpflichtig) but am still unsure exactly where tax is payable on my (small) French State/social security pension. Do the UK and France have a similar DTA arrangement (as the UK has with Germany) and if so, in which country is tax payable ? (If payable in France, on what basis is this tax calculated ?– and where is this information to be found?) .
3 Gary, I was v. interested to read your comment that German tax can be assessed on an "unbeschraenkt" basis - in order to qualify for the full Grundfreibetrag allowance - if the claimant's other income is less than this amount. Where can I find out more about this? In particular, what other income is included here and what sort of evidence/certification does the Finanzamt look for ?
Keep up the good work and thanks for any help you can offer