Gary C

Hi sirdmark2014, Do you have any UK income at all? If not, then the tax return route may not work anyway as it would be odd to send a return with £0 for all taxable income options. Also, your German state pension is not taxable in the UK either way and does not feature, as such, on the tax return, other than a note in the "other information" box to say you have it and that it is taxable only in Germany under the double tax treaty. Once you are in Self Assessment, you would be required to submit a tax return each year until HMRC agrees to take you out of SA so would have to comply with the filing deadline. But, as the issue you have is going to arise every year (because Germany requires confirmation each year of your taxable UK income that is not subject the Einkommensteuer in Germany) the delays in getting the form stamped, or the workaround of submitting a tax return, will arise every year from now on, or at least until you can no longer make the election because either your German-source income is less than 90% of your worldwide income, OR your UK income exceeds the German Grundfreibetrag. The whole election thing is really just a massive tax "fiction" because you are treated as though you are resident in Germany, and therefore fall under unlimited liability taxation, but you are, as a matter of fact, not resident, so Germany can only tax income arising in Germany - all quite odd. But it does, of course, open access to the Grundfreibetrag and other allowances but you must also inform Germany of your UK income as that will be subject to Progressionsvorbehalt. Even so, you are likely to have a lower tax burden than you would have if you did not make this election... In addition to following the advice from HMRC to chase for a reply, I would be minded to write to your Finanzamt (presumably Neubrandenburg RiA) explaining that the form is stuck with HMRC and they are currently suggesting you will get your stamped form back in January, so the matter is out of your hands. You could also give details of the amounts that will be on the form when you get it to demonstrate that you are clearly within the scope of the election and that little or no German tax will arise as a result etc etc. Neubrandenburg FA was content with that approach for the first year we sent the form, when HMRC took 9 months or so to deal with it... Hope this helps.

We have encountered the same lengthy delays when asking HMRC to certify the Non-EU/EEA form, and while Neubrandenburg Finanzamt has always been very understanding of those delays (they probably suffer similar excessive workloads from time-to-time), it does get very uncomfortable if and when they start chasing you for a response, not least because you are then in potential interest and penalty through no fault of your own. In the end we resorted to completing a self-assessment tax return, even though it wasn't really needed. It is very quick to do online, and you can then send a copy of the tax statement that drops out at the end to the Finanzamt. They were happy with that.

I am not sure I understand the question. But I think you might be looking at the Befreiungsmethode and the Anrechnungsmethode. The DTA exempts the pension from Austrian tax (shall be taxable ONLY in the paying state). This is the Befreiungsmethode (Progressionsvorbehalt). You'll need to find the page as we cannot post links on here but the BMF website explains things and tells you how to report the foreign pension income: "Wie wird die Doppelbesteuerung unter Anwendung der Befreiungsmethode (Progressionsvorbehalt) vermieden? Auslandseinkünfte aus einer nichtselbständigen Tätigkeit oder ausländische Pensionsbezüge sind dann in Österreich unter Progressionsvorbehalt steuerbefreit, wenn dies auf Grund eines Doppelbesteuerungsabkommens zwischen Österreich und dem jeweiligen Quellenstaat geregelt ist. Die ausländischen Einkünfte selbst werden bei Anwendung der Befreiungsmethode in Österreich nicht besteuert. Da Österreich bei hier ansässigen Personen das Besteuerungsrecht auf das Welteinkommen hat, sind die ausländischen Einkünfte bei der Ermittlung des Steuersatzes zu berücksichtigen, der auf die in Österreich steuerpflichtigen Einkünfte anzuwenden ist. Da die ausländischen Einkünfte in Österreich nicht besteuert werden, ist eine Anrechnung der ausländischen Steuer nicht möglich. Tragen Sie diese Einkünfte, die bei der Ermittlung des Steuersatzes im Rahmen der Anwendung des Progressionsvorbehaltes zu berücksichtigen sind, in die Kennzahl 453 ein, und im Falle von Pensionsbezügen diese nochmals in die Kennzahl 791. Bitte geben Sie auch in der Kennzahl 493 die Werbungskosten bekannt, die in der Kennzahl 453 bereits abgezogen wurden. "

Hi Bigjock, Re the UK tax return, that would be my understanding but HMRC could confirm that for you. Re Toytown, I have no further ideas. I know someone recently managed to register. If I can get hold of them, I'll ask and feed back. Re the UK/France DTA, Article 23 is correct for state pensions. Article 18 deals with pensions "paid in consideration of past employment" and that is not the case for a social security pension. This is why it comes under the "Other Income" Article. So, if you have a French state pension it is Article 23; if you have a French occupational pension it would be Article 18, unless it was in relation to government service, when it would be Article 19. If you are receiving an occupational pension from your teaching assistant role then it would be Article 18, unless that pension falls within the list of government service pensions. In the UK TAs are in the local government pension scheme, which I think would be Article 19 but I have no idea who the French employer is for TAs (as opposed to teachers) and what pension they offer, over and above any social security, i.e. state pension. You just need to know what that French pension is.

Hi Bigjock, Toytown is still working but you need to disable Java in your browser for that site as something at their end is not working properly. If you search the web for how to do that you might/should be able to register. The state pension (social security pension) is actually dealt with in Article 17(2) of the UK-Germany DTA. The state pension is in Article 23(1) of the UK-France DTA and taxing rights are awarded to the UK, so it would need to go on the foreign page of your SA return in the UK. HMRC will no doubt provide you with the relevant links... Your German tax office will be Neubrandenburg (as we cannot post links, search for "finanzamt-rente-im-ausland"). When on that site (the German version is more comprehensive if your German is sufficient), go to "Who? What? How Much?" and then "How much do I have to pay?" and it explains the two categories of Limited Liability (beschränkte Steuerpflicht) and Unlimited Liability (unbeschränkte Steuerpflicht). If you submit a UK tax return you can use that as proof of income even though the tax years do not coincide - you use the tax return that captures the year that starts during the German tax year, so 2022/23 for 2022 and so on. Alternatively you can complete and send a form "Non-EU/EEA Certificate" (on their download page) to HMRC for "stamping", which you then send to the FA.

Hi Jon, My understanding (and you will still need to check) is that the Austrian tax system is similar to the German system in this regard and yes, you would need to declare income exempted from Austrian tax by a DTA for the purpose of setting the rate at which you pay tax on your income that is taxable in Austria (Progresionsvorbehalt in Germany). In simple terms, your tax rate is set by reference to your worldwide income, irrespective of whether all of that worldwide income is actually taxed in the country.

Thanks Admin 10. That is what I was hoping. Up until now there has been another reason for being in SA but as of 2024/25 that reason falls away. I'll give the SA team a call at some point after the 2023/24 return is submitted...

Actually, it's Article 17, not Article 18 but be that as it may, does that still mean that people in receipt, only, of a German State Pension exempted from UK tax under Article 17(2), are still brought within self assessment, even though they have no taxable foreign income? Whatever the answer, it would be helpful if such circumstances were dealt with in the SA return tool and in the guidance more generally.

Indeed, though I ran through the "do I need to submit a return" tool on GOV UK and it says I don't need to submit a return. Question 6 asks "Do you need to pay tax on any of the following?", one of which is "Income from outside the UK". As the answer to that is "No" because I do not need to pay tax on said income as it is exempt from UK tax under the DTA, it would seem that, either the tool cannot deal with complexities of that nature, or, if income is exempted under a treaty, then the need to send a return is lifted. One for HMRC to opine on...

 As HMRC has said, the fact that one has a foreign pension, irrespective of whether it is, or is not, taxable in the UK, means you are cordially invited to submit a tax return each year. Also as stated, the German state pension is taxable only in Germany by virtue of Article 17(2) of the tax treaty, so you do not need to declare it as taxable income in the UK. However, if you look at the notes to the Foreign pages (page FN8) , you can see that in such circumstances you need to put a specified form of words into the "any other information box", Box 19, to alert HMRC to the fact that you have foreign income that is not taxable in the UK, hence, no foreign pages completed as part of the return. You do not enter the amount of the pension in Box 19, just the details requested. FN8 says, "If you have a pension that’s not taxable in the UK because of a DTA, give full details of the pension’s payer, pension and relevant DTA in the ‘Any other information’ box on your tax return." Does this clarify the position - one my wife and I have been "enjoying" for the past few years?