Gary C

Bigjock, I think you have asked a similar question elsewhere on here. HMRC has also misconstrued your question and the different Articles of the UK/Germany treaty. The DRV pension is Germany's social security or state pension and is taxable ONLY in Germany by virtue of Article 17(2) since 2010 treaty came into effect. Government Service pensions are covered by Article 18 of that treaty but that is irrelevant for your pension. Your tax office in Germany is Finanzamt Neubrandenburg. They are unlikely to seek you out until they are taking legal action for tax evasion, which is a criminal offence in Germany. As I understand it, since the aforementioned tax office became the specialist office for foreign pensioner taxation, they are actively pursuing non-compliance. You should contact them as a matter of urgency. Contact details are on their website ( www finanzamt-rente-im-ausland.de). All the advice I have seen on issues Germany and tax indicate early and voluntary disclosure is paramount.

While your EU record will be taken into account as you are covered by the Withdrawal Agreement, the only time it would have an impact on your UK pension is if you have fewer than 10 UK years. Otherwise the answer will always be mathematically identical. As you appear to have more than 10 UK years (or should be able to achieve that) there is nothing to worry about. Your UK years will, in due course, be considered in Portugal and may help you get past any minimum years' requirement there too...

I am not sure I understand the question. But I think you might be looking at the Befreiungsmethode and the Anrechnungsmethode. The DTA exempts the pension from Austrian tax (shall be taxable ONLY in the paying state). This is the Befreiungsmethode (Progressionsvorbehalt). You'll need to find the page as we cannot post links on here but the BMF website explains things and tells you how to report the foreign pension income: "Wie wird die Doppelbesteuerung unter Anwendung der Befreiungsmethode (Progressionsvorbehalt) vermieden? Auslandseinkünfte aus einer nichtselbständigen Tätigkeit oder ausländische Pensionsbezüge sind dann in Österreich unter Progressionsvorbehalt steuerbefreit, wenn dies auf Grund eines Doppelbesteuerungsabkommens zwischen Österreich und dem jeweiligen Quellenstaat geregelt ist. Die ausländischen Einkünfte selbst werden bei Anwendung der Befreiungsmethode in Österreich nicht besteuert. Da Österreich bei hier ansässigen Personen das Besteuerungsrecht auf das Welteinkommen hat, sind die ausländischen Einkünfte bei der Ermittlung des Steuersatzes zu berücksichtigen, der auf die in Österreich steuerpflichtigen Einkünfte anzuwenden ist. Da die ausländischen Einkünfte in Österreich nicht besteuert werden, ist eine Anrechnung der ausländischen Steuer nicht möglich. Tragen Sie diese Einkünfte, die bei der Ermittlung des Steuersatzes im Rahmen der Anwendung des Progressionsvorbehaltes zu berücksichtigen sind, in die Kennzahl 453 ein, und im Falle von Pensionsbezügen diese nochmals in die Kennzahl 791. Bitte geben Sie auch in der Kennzahl 493 die Werbungskosten bekannt, die in der Kennzahl 453 bereits abgezogen wurden. "

Hi Bigjock, Re the UK tax return, that would be my understanding but HMRC could confirm that for you. Re Toytown, I have no further ideas. I know someone recently managed to register. If I can get hold of them, I'll ask and feed back. Re the UK/France DTA, Article 23 is correct for state pensions. Article 18 deals with pensions "paid in consideration of past employment" and that is not the case for a social security pension. This is why it comes under the "Other Income" Article. So, if you have a French state pension it is Article 23; if you have a French occupational pension it would be Article 18, unless it was in relation to government service, when it would be Article 19. If you are receiving an occupational pension from your teaching assistant role then it would be Article 18, unless that pension falls within the list of government service pensions. In the UK TAs are in the local government pension scheme, which I think would be Article 19 but I have no idea who the French employer is for TAs (as opposed to teachers) and what pension they offer, over and above any social security, i.e. state pension. You just need to know what that French pension is.

Hi Bigjock, Toytown is still working but you need to disable Java in your browser for that site as something at their end is not working properly. If you search the web for how to do that you might/should be able to register. The state pension (social security pension) is actually dealt with in Article 17(2) of the UK-Germany DTA. The state pension is in Article 23(1) of the UK-France DTA and taxing rights are awarded to the UK, so it would need to go on the foreign page of your SA return in the UK. HMRC will no doubt provide you with the relevant links... Your German tax office will be Neubrandenburg (as we cannot post links, search for "finanzamt-rente-im-ausland"). When on that site (the German version is more comprehensive if your German is sufficient), go to "Who? What? How Much?" and then "How much do I have to pay?" and it explains the two categories of Limited Liability (beschränkte Steuerpflicht) and Unlimited Liability (unbeschränkte Steuerpflicht). If you submit a UK tax return you can use that as proof of income even though the tax years do not coincide - you use the tax return that captures the year that starts during the German tax year, so 2022/23 for 2022 and so on. Alternatively you can complete and send a form "Non-EU/EEA Certificate" (on their download page) to HMRC for "stamping", which you then send to the FA.

Hi Jon, My understanding (and you will still need to check) is that the Austrian tax system is similar to the German system in this regard and yes, you would need to declare income exempted from Austrian tax by a DTA for the purpose of setting the rate at which you pay tax on your income that is taxable in Austria (Progresionsvorbehalt in Germany). In simple terms, your tax rate is set by reference to your worldwide income, irrespective of whether all of that worldwide income is actually taxed in the country.

Thanks Admin 10. That is what I was hoping. Up until now there has been another reason for being in SA but as of 2024/25 that reason falls away. I'll give the SA team a call at some point after the 2023/24 return is submitted...

Hi Terry Osborn, According to Article 17(2) of the DTA, the German state pension is taxable ONLY in Germany, so should not have featured on the foreign pages of your UK returns - FN8 in the notes makes that clear. Neubrandenburg will therefore, correctly, be sending you tax assessments for 2020, 2021 and 2022 and you'll have to pay them in full to avoid interest at a pretty penal rate. You then need to claim back any UK tax incorrectly paid. As HMRC say, you'll need to speak to their experts on that. As far as I am aware, tax credit relief in Germany for the incorrectly paid UK tax is not an option, unless that letter suggests otherwise, so I would contact Germany and get the process sorted there, setting up email correspondence, electing for them to do the assessment in the absence of a tax return (Amtsveranlagung) and setting up a direct debit (Lastschriftmandat) to ensure you don't miss any payment dates - if your German tax exceeds 400€ per year, you will be put on quarterly payments on account!

Actually, it's Article 17, not Article 18 but be that as it may, does that still mean that people in receipt, only, of a German State Pension exempted from UK tax under Article 17(2), are still brought within self assessment, even though they have no taxable foreign income? Whatever the answer, it would be helpful if such circumstances were dealt with in the SA return tool and in the guidance more generally.

Indeed, though I ran through the "do I need to submit a return" tool on GOV UK and it says I don't need to submit a return. Question 6 asks "Do you need to pay tax on any of the following?", one of which is "Income from outside the UK". As the answer to that is "No" because I do not need to pay tax on said income as it is exempt from UK tax under the DTA, it would seem that, either the tool cannot deal with complexities of that nature, or, if income is exempted under a treaty, then the need to send a return is lifted. One for HMRC to opine on...