Gary C

No, I am not an HMRC employee - I am simply reading the treaty. Italy, which has primary taxing rights over the worldwide income of its residents, is doing no more than applying its tax laws and the treaty. Double taxation is avoided by giving relief for tax paid in the UK. The fact that the UK tax is less than the Italian tax is of no relevance. I am sure HMRC will correct me if I am wrong.

Sounds as though Italy is doing what the double tax treaty says. Have a look at Article 6(1) or the link from HMRC in the post above yours. The UK can tax the income as it arises in the UK and Italy can tax the income as you are resident and it is part of your worldwide income. Italy would then give relief for the tax you have paid in the UK - no double taxation there.

If your grandfather has a UK National Insurance record then under the EU regulations on the coordination of social security systems he should qualify for a UK pension, as aggregation of his UK and Italian years should, one would expect, get him past any minimum requirements for a UK state pension. The EU regulations foresee that you claim all of your social security (state) pensions via the pension authority in your country of residence, i.e. Italy. They will liaise with DWP in the UK to progress his claim. If he is entitled to a UK State Pension, he will end up with a separate pension from each country. Under the UK/Italy double taxation agreement, the UK State Pension is taxable only in Italy.

HMRC Admin 25, You refer to Article 17(1) but that is subject to the potential override in Article 17(3), which returns taxing rights to the UK only if certain conditions are met. Can you point CK67 Keens at any relevant guidance concerning Article 17(3)?

Having looked at FN8 again, I can see where you are coming from but had not read it in that way. One for HMRC to tweak for future years perhaps? My reference to that particular bank was to indicate that you could just have the pension paid in Euros and then convert to £ at a time of your choice. That of course necessitates having sufficient other income to live from. If you visit Euroland you also have an account with a debit card to spend your Euros without incurring exchange costs... Just a thought.

Puffer, The point HMRC is making is on page FN8 of the foreign notes "If you have a pension that’s not taxable in the UK because of a DTA, give full details of the pension’s payer, pension and relevant DTA in the ‘Any other information’ box on your tax return. " Revolut has been mentioned but you could also look at other options like Starling Bank, who offer a € account. We have such accounts to receive an EU pension in €, to spend in Euroland, or change to £ as and when it is needed. Just a thought...

I agree the OP's comments about entitlement. S178 ITEPA 2003 states that "The taxable pension income for a tax year is the full amount of the pension, benefit or allowance accruing in that year irrespective of when any amount is actually paid." The state pension is a weekly benefit, normally paid 4-weekly paid in arrears, even though entitlement arises on each week end-date within those 4 weeks. That surely means that if one receives a 4-weekly payment on, say, 10 April 2024, when the pension increase date was on, say, 8 April, then that payment includes entitlement to 3 weeks relating to 2022/23 tax year and 1 week (week ending 10 April) during 2023/24 at the rate applicable to 2023. The first week's entitlement at the 2024 pension rate would be week commencing 11 April, so ending on 17 April. This means that when calculating entitlement for tax return purposes, one must surely use 1 week at the old rate and 51 weeks at the rate for the year in question. This appears to be how Tax Codes are calculated, so why is it that Tax Returns are not pre-populated in the same way? The final sentence of EIM76005 would seem to support this. If you search this forum there is massive confusion on both sides and calling your helplines is equally frustrating. Calling DWP is even less rewarding. Isn't it time that HMRC and DWP worked together to give taxpayers certainty over the taxable amount of their state pension in the form of a statement on the annual increase letter telling people their taxable amount for the preceding tax year was £X, i.e. something broadly similar to a P60?

To answer their question, surely the state pension will be taxable only in Italy and the LA pension will be taxable only in the UK unless Jif100 Milan has Italian citizenship?

HMRC Admins, I am confused. Robert S has indicated that he is not resident in the UK - he is resident and working in Germany, so tax resident there and taxed, as you would expect, by Germany on his German salary and other worldwide income, subject to the DTA between the UK and Germany. Surely, the only time he needs to even consider a UK tax return is if he has UK-source income that is not exempted by the DTA between the UK and Germany, e.g. UK property rental income. Are you and he talking at cross-purposes?

JanetTootill, I am a little confused. I searched BR1 and that relates to the old state pension for those reaching pension age before 6 April 2016. When I claimed my German pension a couple of years ago, DWP sent me (and others I know who have recently claimed their foreign pensions as UK residents) form CFN901 and routed that information to Germany (or whichever other EU country is relevant). You cannot download the CFN901. I think a call to DWP may be helpful to clarify the position for you. They will either say the BR1 can be used, or will pop a CFN901 in the post to you. It is not long - only about 8 pages of personal info and info about where you have worked and which bank account the pension should be paid into... I am not sure why you mention the non-EU/EEA form as you won't need that unless you are electing to be treated as if you were resident in Germany (a tax fiction) to give access to their personal allowance. You can only make that election if at least 90% of your income is taxable in Germany, or your income that is not taxable in Germany, i.e. everything other than your German pension, does not exceed the German personal allowance of 11,604€ for 2024. If you cannot make such election, you are taxed on every Cent under their limited liability rules. In the event you do need the certificate, you would send it to HMRC as it relates to your UK taxable income, not your pension as such. Hope this helps.