Gary C

Nic Zarrilli, That would be my understanding - the UK should be interested only in the gross pension if it is taxable only in the UK.

Surely, if Italy has incorrectly tax the income, in contravention of the DTA, which is the case here because the treaty awards taxing rights only to the UK for pensions, then one should reclaim that incorrectly withheld tax from Italy? Otherwise the UK is down on its tax take and Italy has ignored the treaty it has entered into and has tax to which it is not entitled, or am I missing something?

JanetToothill, That is great news and I bet you are glad it is sorted.
The pension is paid on the last working day of the month, though if paid to a bank account outside Germany it seems to arrive a few days earlier - presumably they have to allow for international banking delays.
My December payment arrived on 23 December, so your 24 December payment sounds like the regular monthly amount and should accord with your Rentenbescheid informing you of your regular pension amount.
If your tax is more than (I think) 400€, you will be cordially invited to make payments on account 4 times a year with a 5th balancing payment - another very good reason to have the direct debit set up.
The first year's tax must be paid in full and then payments on account start towards the next year, so similar, in principle, to the UK system.
Your tax-free element of the pension will be lower than mine as it started 2 years later but you were in Germany for a similar number of years, so if you get around 450€ to 500€ per month I think your tax will sit around 15%.
If you go to German government's bmf-steuerrechner de you can check.
Just add the taxable part of your pension, less 102€, to the Grundfreibetrag (the calculation assumes you will qualify for that even though you won't, so you need to enter it) and your tax will be calculated. For instance, if your pension is 6,000€ and the taxable amount is 84%, (5,040), less 102€ that leaves 4,938€ taxable income. Add 11,784€ to that, your tax is 924€ and your effective tax rate on your 6,000€ is about 15.4% Sit back and enjoy...

AliGermany, 15 years and 3 months seems to me to be "more that 15 years", so it would seem that it falls under Article 17(3) and, subject to the other conditions in that Article being met, especially the "effectively taxed" conditions, then the UK would get the tax rather than Germany. Not sure why HMRC cannot say that, hmm... I too would love to hear how HMRC considers the tax-free (in the UK) lump sum should be treated for pensions falling under Article 17(3). My understanding of the DTA is that citizenship is relevant only to the treatment of Government Service pensions in Article 18(2)(b) but not in any shape or form to Article 17. If your UK pension IS taxable in Germany then my understanding is the same as yours that it would go on Anlage R-AUS. And in the case of a company pension, in row 23. However, if it IS NOT taxable in Germany, and thus feeds only into Progressionsvorbehalt to inform your rate of tax in Germany, then my understanding is that you use Anlage AUS, row 36+ in the section " Einkünfte i. S. d. § 32b EStG". If you were to enter it on Anlage R-AUS it would, I believe, be recognised as taxable, which would be incorrect. Your German tax adviser really should know this.

Pentonia, Surely the NHS pension is also a Government Service pension, so taxable only in the UK unless they have Spanish citizenship, when Spain gets the tax, as would be the case with what you describe as their Government pension. The next question is, what income do they have that would warrant them still submitting UK tax returns - one for HMRC to opine on...

HMRC - surely, if the person has German citizenship then a government or LA pension reverts to being taxable only in Germany under Article 18(2)(b)? ALiGermany has German citizenship. The pension they mention is a company pension into which they have paid for more than 15 years. Article 17(3) would appear to apply making it taxable only in the UK as long as it is "effectively taxed", which I understand to mean "subject to tax". Given that a tax-free lump sum would be tax exempt and thus not "effectively taxed" my understanding from a German tax adviser is that Article 17(3) would be failed in Germany's view and taxation of the whole pension would revert to them. Is that how HMRC view Article 17(3)? AliGermany - the German tax people will not view a lump sum as being tax paid. They (and HMRC) will either view the payments as taxable only in the UK, or only in Germany. If they are taxable only in the UK, you will have to report the amounts on Anlage R-AUS with your German tax return, so that the amounts feed into the rate at which you pay tax on your income that is taxable in Germany (Progressionsvorbehalt). This is provided for in Article 23 (1)(d) of the treaty - "Germany, however, retains the right to take into account in the determination of its rate of tax the items of income and capital, which are under the provisions of this Convention exempted from German tax."

Anette, As mentioned to Nick, I managed to get a Starling € account and that works well. The e-money firms that I mentioned may provide SEPA D/D as they do give you an IBAN. My understanding is that HMRC accepts payments from them, though I don't know whether the NI Team allows D/Ds to be set up via them to pay voluntary NI. Perhaps HMRC can confirm. But if they do, I would see no reason why RiA would not allow you to set up a D/D with the likes of Wise or Revolut. Perhaps something to ask them, either by sending the form and a covering email, or just as a direct question?

NickG 1. Re the lump, I guess it comes back to the question of whether your wife paid into the scheme for more than 15 years and got tax relief on her contributions that has not been clawed back etc. (Article 17(3) of the treaty) but leave HMRC to pronounce on how the treaty applies to lump sums from schemes that are not the state pension, so under Article 17(1) or (3) but not Article 17(2). (I am assuming here that the job in Rundfunk does not constitute Government Service under Article 18...). Other than tax in one year and therefore the rate of tax, if taxed in Germany, would it make much difference whether she takes a lump sum or monthly pension? 2. I am in the same position as you and also closed my account with the same bank but managed to open a € account before they stopped offering them "temporarily". Other people use e-money firms like Wise or Revolut to undertake £/€ transactions but I have no experience of those firms. I understand you get an IBAN and then simply make an online payment but you would need to research that one...

You should call DWP International Pension Centre and explain that you wish to claim your German state pension. They will send you a form CFN901 which asks for things like your German pension reference number. DWP will send that information, together with your UK NI record to the DRV Bund Berlin, who will then contact you directly for any additional information and/or to inform you of your pension award.

HMRC Admin 21, The state pension is taxed on the amount to which the person is entitled during the year, so to take account of the fact that the pension increases from the first benefit week that starts on, or after, the first Monday of the tax year, one cannot take the weekly amount x 52, or the 4-weekly amount x 13. It is generally 1 week at the old rate and 51 weeks at the new, unless of course it is a 53-week year.