Gary C

I realise that my comment does not answer your question, though I am not sure what you are concerned about re column F but leave you and HMRC to sort that. My point is, where is your pension taxable? It can only be either Germany, or the UK as the DTA uses the word "ONLY", not "MAY" in terms of who can tax pensions. If it's Germany then you would put a note in the other information box of your UK return as set out on FN8 - Germany would then be correctly proposing to deduct tax on payment and you would need to get set-up with the German tax office. If it's the UK, then Germany should not be deducting tax as they have no taxing rights and you would need to sort it out with them. Given that you were in Germany for 15 years, it seems to me that Article 17(3) may be in point to allocate taxing rights to Germany by overriding the normal position in 17(1), which is what HMRC describe (they are silent on the question of 17(3). If 17(3) does not apply, then the pension would be taxable only in the UK and you have an issue to resolve in Germany to stop them incorrectly withholding tax. There is a useful forum where you could ask your question about the German end of things. There are some knowledgeable Steuerberater (Tax Accountants) who participate and help people with this sort of question. It is toytowngermany.com/forum/forum/181-finance (if HMRC is happy to allow a pointer to external sites if they are not links)

Thanks but we are just going round in circles with this. I know the amount is supposed to be based on the entitlement but in my view the amount pre-populated is incorrect, i.e. too low. My question is, how does HMRC calculate the entitlement in the first year when the first payment includes an apportioned week plus a number of full weeks, and the rest of the year includes, of course, a number of full weeks ending on or before 5 April? It seems to me that the part week is not being taken into account but I am getting no joy out of your self-assessment colleagues, DWP or you at the moment, which is frustrating.

This is quite similar to my question. The tax law requires that your are taxed on the amount of state pension to which you were "entitled" during the tax year. The state pension is a weekly benefit, paid in arrears, with entitlement arising when each weekly amount would be payable, if you were paid weekly. With 4-weekly payments, the weekly entitlement does not change - only the frequency of payment changes. Your first payment, on 30 September, was 1 day's entitlement for 23 September (commencement and cessation of the pension are the only times entitlement is apportioned to days - something introduced, I believe, with the new state pension in 2016), plus a full week. After that, you are on the 4-weely rhythm. I therefore believe DWP has given you incorrect advice on both occasions. My understanding is that your entitlement in 2022/23 is everything you received up-to and including that 17 March payment, plus the number of full benefit weeks ending on, or before, 5 April, representing the accrued entitlement that was included in the 14 April payment. In my view, that is 2 weeks, of the 4 weeks included in that payment, i.e. week ending 24 March and week ending 31 March. The other 2 weeks end in 2023/24. The issue involved in my question, is why does HMRC appear not to include the amounts relating the firs 1 to 6 days included in your first payment when they pre-populate the tax return amount.

I am curious why you are pursuing the FTCR route. Article 17 of the DTA is quite clear that pensions are taxable ONLY in one country, or the other. The starting position is Article17(1), which awards taxing rights over pensions to the country of residence, i.e. the UK in this case. This may be overridden by 17(3) but you have not mentioned that. "3) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, such a pension, similar remuneration or annuity arising in a Contracting State which is attributable in whole or in part to contributions which, for more than 15 years in that State, a) did not form part of the taxable income from employment, or b) were tax-deductible, or c) were tax-relieved in some other way shall be taxable only in that State. This paragraph shall not apply if that State does not effectively tax the pension, other similar remuneration or annuity, or if the tax relief was clawed back for any reason, or if the 15 year condition is fulfilled in both Contracting States." Surely, there is a process in Germany, akin to that in UK, to receive confirmation from the German Finanzamt, for the pension payer, informing them that the pension should be paid gross? I am not sure whether your Tax Office, should you end up with one, would be Neu Brandenburg (RiA) (they certainly deal with the taxation of German state pensions for those who are not resident) but that could be a good place to start.

Thanks, and again, I am fully aware of that guidance. The trouble is, the figure you are using to pre-populate the return is 1/7 x £weekly pension, i.e. 1 day, less that the accrued amount. Or to put is another way, the entitlement is 22 weeks and 1 day, whereas the return is pre-populated with 22 weeks. When I spoke to your SA colleague, they said they rely on what DWP sends them and it will all come out in the wash from 2023/24 onwards but that simply cannot be the case, especially as no tax will ultimately be payable for 2022/23, whereas that will not be the case for 2023/24, so this small amount of income would be actually taxed if your colleague is correct... DWP thus far have failed to send the promised letter setting out what they consider they provided to HMRC. I get that it is only a small amount but all 3 parties should be able to agree the correct amount and it should be taxable in the correct year, in line with the statute.

Thank you. I am aware of those notes but they do not answer the question asked, so I will ask again in a slightly different way. If a person started their UK state pension on, say, 31 October 2022, and received the first payment into their bank on 21 November, amounting to 3 full 4-weekly payments, plus 1 day, representing 31 October, then how is that viewed by HMRC? Do they include only the 3 full weeks on their tax return, or is it the actual amount to which they were entitled (which is also the amount received as payment was within the tax year)? I ask because the amount pre-populated on their tax return is lower than my calculation of the entitlement by exactly 1/7 x £ weekly amount, i.e. the SA system has not counted 31 October 2022. Is there a reason for that?

Thanks. I am comfortable with the SA106 position, as we have been doing it for several years now, but was hoping that my wife and I could come off SA now that we no longer have UK property rental income. Oh well, at least I know well in advance that we will continue to have the joy of each of us completing a return each year. Also tell Jea7 that they too can look forward to a SA return each year...

Can I ask how HMRC's systems deal with the part week during which the pension commences? e.g. under the new state pension, the amount of benefit is apportioned in the week in which the pension starts and for the week of death. This is a change from how the pension was paid for those reaching pension age before April 2016. I ask because the amount pre-populated by HMRC on a friend's return is exactly 1/7 x weekly amount less than their actual new state pension entitlement for the last tax year and their pension started on day 7 of a pension week during the tax year, meaning they were entitled to, and received, 1 day plus 3 weeks in the first 4-week payment schedule.

 You make the election by reference to a particular tax year and it remains effective until you rescind it. Have a look at the "forms" tab on the RIA website (I cannot post links), either in English or German, and submit a "Antwortformular englisch - Reply slip" form. Re your question to HMRC about the informing them of the pension, if you submit a UK tax return, Page FN8 of the Foreign Notes to SA106 say "If you have a pension that’s not taxable in the UK because of a DTA, give full details of the pension’s payer, pension and relevant DTA in the ‘Any other information’ box on your tax return. " I take that to mean that one should put the same text in the "any other info box" every time one submits a return. It will be interesting to learn from HMRC what the process is if you are not in SA and/or if, having been in SA, HMRC agree that tax returns are no longer necessary.

Jea7, I communicate via e-mail but you need attachments to be in PDF and a few other limited formats - it will complain if you get it wrong. You will get 2 tax ID numbers. One is issued by RiA when they know you exist, so sending the form, absent a number, with a covering email should cover both bases. The other number is the newer Tax ID number that is intended to stay with you when you change tax offices (akin to our tax numbers) and will be issued in due course by the central tax office - you should not need to do anything to get this but it can take months - many months. But once you are in contact with RiA, you'll probably get an allocated caseworker and also be asked to complete an email authority form.