Gary C

Hi, I think we are aware that the amount is supposed to be the entitlement during the year but in my example that is clearly not the case. Can you please respond to that example and the questions asked? Thanks.

Hi Jea7 1) I just ticked the one you mention. 2) that's a good question. I think I would be minded to pay this time and get things set up in good time for the next payment. 3) I have a € account and there are no costs. If you are using a £ account then there would be the exchange cost but you could ask your bank, just to be certain. You'll be making your first manual payment using SEPA anyway, i.e. entering their IBAN in your international payments part of your chosen bank, so that may answer your question. SEPA is just a Europe-wide system to keep costs down, so far as I know... I think I'll stay retired and just help people where I can, lol

Thanks for posting the link again but as I read that guidance, it is about how the tax code is generated for PAYE, not how the SA return is pre-populated. PAYE is a system to get a reasonable estimate of a person's tax position, with an end-of-year reconciliation to sort out any differences. The SA return, on the other hand, is an absolute statement of a person's final tax position for the year in question. Pre-populating the pension with an incorrect entitlement seems the same to me as pre-populating it with the incorrect amount of bank interest when all accounts have been properly included. Perhaps there is guidance tucked away somewhere on HMRC's part of GOV UK that sets out how this pre-population is done and that it is expected that in year 1 of the state pension the customer must override the pre-populated amount? I await HMRC's response to my question...

Hi Admin 25, Thanks and that is what I would expect but that is NOT what the pre-populated amount on the SA return shows! Back to the example (which is based on real data): * State pension starts 31 October 2022 and weekly amount is £185.15. * First payment, for 31 October plus 3 x 4-weekly amounts ( 1/7 x £185.15, plus 3 x £185.15 = £581.90) paid on 21 November. * 4 x 4-weekly payments on 19/12/22, 16/1, 13/2, and 13/3/23 totalling 4 x £740.60 = £2,962.40 follow. * 1 x 4-weekly payment on 10 April 2023 of £740.60, of which 3 weeks ( w/e 20 March, 27 March and 3 April) fall in 2022/23, meaning accrued amount is 3 x £185.15 = £555.45 My understanding is that the entitlement is £581.90 + £2,962.40 + £555.45 = £4.099.75. However, the return is pre-populated with on £4,073. The difference is exactly 1/7 x £185.15 = £26.75, which surely can only represent the 1 day for 31 October included in the 21 November payment. In my, and their, opinion, the pre-populated figure is therefore incorrect. The person is content to override the pre-populated amount but does not want to do so until it is clear that that is appropriate. It has so far taken since 6 April to get absolutely nowhere, with either HMRC or DWP by phone - not helped by the fact that you close the SA helpline over the summer! It is not the amount of tax as such, albeit, the £26.75 will not suffer tax in 2022/23 but would suffer tax if assessed in 2023/24 because of overall income levels: it is that they want to get things clear and on the correct footing for 2022/23 and all future years. Can you please confirm that the numbers in the example would give and entitlement of £4,099.75 and explain why the pre-populated amount is therefore incorrect? Thanks

Thank you Admin 20/25. My comments were directed at C Price. My German pension falls within 17(2), so the position is beyond doubt. All I was seeking to do was to point C Price at Article 17(3), which can, if the conditions are met, override the default position.

1) You fill out the d/d form "Formular für SEPA-Lastschriftmandat (englisch)" from the Finanzamt Neu Brandenburg (RiA) website. If you click on "Formulare" and then on "Downloadcenter Formulare" in the box on the right your will find it in the list of forms under the heading, "Formulare und Hinweise für das SEPA-Lastschrifteinzugsverfahren". 2) If you set-up the d/d then broadly yes, but only if you have elected to have RiA assess you absent a tax return (Amtsveranlagung). If you do not elect for that treatment you will need to send a paper tax return each year without being prompted to do so! The form for this is also on their website and is called "Antwortformular englisch - Reply slip". Once that is in place you will receive a tax assessment each year once RiA have worked your case and tax will be taken automatically on the due dates, which I think are linked to the date the assessment is issued. (You have a right of appeal but I am not sure what happens about paying tax is you exercise that right when you receive your assessment). There is also a form to enable you to communicate by normal email. We are just getting up and running with all of this as my other half was able elect to be treated as if they are resident (a total tax fiction) which opens up access to the German personal allowance (normally non-residents do not qualify for any allowances or reliefs against their German-source income). This meant that for the first few years there was no tax to pay. However, this is only possible if at least 90% of your taxable income is German-source, OR, your non-German-source income is lower than the German Personal Allowance (Grundfreibetrag). Worth looking at if your UK income is less than 10,347€ for 2022. Anyway, my first tax assessment prepared by RiA shows an amount of tax due, which was collected by d/d on the due date. I had emailed them to confirm that they had received my d/d form and asked if they needed anything further - the answer was "no" and that they would send the assessment as and when as they are inundated. RiA will now take payments on account (POA) for tax year 2023 every 3 months (September, December and March for me), before (I assume) next year's assessment is issued with a balancing figure, then onwards and upwards with the next POAs... Hope this helps - it can seem a little daunting and to be honest, the German tax office is a little less customer-focused than HMRC, so we need to be thankful for what we have in the UK, lol.

imlach03 The tax rules are indeed that you are taxed on your entitlement for 2022/23, even though you may not receive some of that amount until after the end of the tax year - it is simply what the law says. My understanding is that you become entitled to an amount of state pension on the day on which a week would be due for payment if you were receiving it weekly (as opposed to 4-weekly). This is why you need to apportion a 4-weekly DWP payment to work out your income for tax purposes - how many weeks of the 4-weeks' payment end in one tax year and how many in the next. Any entitlement taxed in 2022/23 will of course not be taxed again in 2023/24, so it is just a timing issue. DWP works on a completely different basis. The state pension is a weekly benefit, and the annual uplift applies for your first week that starts after the statutory date on which the pension increases. That is the first Monday of the new tax year. For 2023/24 that was Monday 10 April, so, if you were paid on 11 April, that payment will have included 4 weeks at the 2022/23 rate. Your next payment on 9 May (if I have my dates right), would then be 4 weeks at the 2023/24 rate. So, the DWP year and the HMRC year are different and in my experience, DWP are not giving accurate information when they try to explain the tax position, which, frankly, in my opinion, they are not equipped to do.

I realise that my comment does not answer your question, though I am not sure what you are concerned about re column F but leave you and HMRC to sort that. My point is, where is your pension taxable? It can only be either Germany, or the UK as the DTA uses the word "ONLY", not "MAY" in terms of who can tax pensions. If it's Germany then you would put a note in the other information box of your UK return as set out on FN8 - Germany would then be correctly proposing to deduct tax on payment and you would need to get set-up with the German tax office. If it's the UK, then Germany should not be deducting tax as they have no taxing rights and you would need to sort it out with them. Given that you were in Germany for 15 years, it seems to me that Article 17(3) may be in point to allocate taxing rights to Germany by overriding the normal position in 17(1), which is what HMRC describe (they are silent on the question of 17(3). If 17(3) does not apply, then the pension would be taxable only in the UK and you have an issue to resolve in Germany to stop them incorrectly withholding tax. There is a useful forum where you could ask your question about the German end of things. There are some knowledgeable Steuerberater (Tax Accountants) who participate and help people with this sort of question. It is toytowngermany.com/forum/forum/181-finance (if HMRC is happy to allow a pointer to external sites if they are not links)

Thanks but we are just going round in circles with this. I know the amount is supposed to be based on the entitlement but in my view the amount pre-populated is incorrect, i.e. too low. My question is, how does HMRC calculate the entitlement in the first year when the first payment includes an apportioned week plus a number of full weeks, and the rest of the year includes, of course, a number of full weeks ending on or before 5 April? It seems to me that the part week is not being taken into account but I am getting no joy out of your self-assessment colleagues, DWP or you at the moment, which is frustrating.

This is quite similar to my question. The tax law requires that your are taxed on the amount of state pension to which you were "entitled" during the tax year. The state pension is a weekly benefit, paid in arrears, with entitlement arising when each weekly amount would be payable, if you were paid weekly. With 4-weekly payments, the weekly entitlement does not change - only the frequency of payment changes. Your first payment, on 30 September, was 1 day's entitlement for 23 September (commencement and cessation of the pension are the only times entitlement is apportioned to days - something introduced, I believe, with the new state pension in 2016), plus a full week. After that, you are on the 4-weely rhythm. I therefore believe DWP has given you incorrect advice on both occasions. My understanding is that your entitlement in 2022/23 is everything you received up-to and including that 17 March payment, plus the number of full benefit weeks ending on, or before, 5 April, representing the accrued entitlement that was included in the 14 April payment. In my view, that is 2 weeks, of the 4 weeks included in that payment, i.e. week ending 24 March and week ending 31 March. The other 2 weeks end in 2023/24. The issue involved in my question, is why does HMRC appear not to include the amounts relating the firs 1 to 6 days included in your first payment when they pre-populate the tax return amount.