Gary C

I am curious why you are pursuing the FTCR route. Article 17 of the DTA is quite clear that pensions are taxable ONLY in one country, or the other. The starting position is Article17(1), which awards taxing rights over pensions to the country of residence, i.e. the UK in this case. This may be overridden by 17(3) but you have not mentioned that. "3) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, such a pension, similar remuneration or annuity arising in a Contracting State which is attributable in whole or in part to contributions which, for more than 15 years in that State, a) did not form part of the taxable income from employment, or b) were tax-deductible, or c) were tax-relieved in some other way shall be taxable only in that State. This paragraph shall not apply if that State does not effectively tax the pension, other similar remuneration or annuity, or if the tax relief was clawed back for any reason, or if the 15 year condition is fulfilled in both Contracting States." Surely, there is a process in Germany, akin to that in UK, to receive confirmation from the German Finanzamt, for the pension payer, informing them that the pension should be paid gross? I am not sure whether your Tax Office, should you end up with one, would be Neu Brandenburg (RiA) (they certainly deal with the taxation of German state pensions for those who are not resident) but that could be a good place to start.

Thanks, and again, I am fully aware of that guidance. The trouble is, the figure you are using to pre-populate the return is 1/7 x £weekly pension, i.e. 1 day, less that the accrued amount. Or to put is another way, the entitlement is 22 weeks and 1 day, whereas the return is pre-populated with 22 weeks. When I spoke to your SA colleague, they said they rely on what DWP sends them and it will all come out in the wash from 2023/24 onwards but that simply cannot be the case, especially as no tax will ultimately be payable for 2022/23, whereas that will not be the case for 2023/24, so this small amount of income would be actually taxed if your colleague is correct... DWP thus far have failed to send the promised letter setting out what they consider they provided to HMRC. I get that it is only a small amount but all 3 parties should be able to agree the correct amount and it should be taxable in the correct year, in line with the statute.

Thank you. I am aware of those notes but they do not answer the question asked, so I will ask again in a slightly different way. If a person started their UK state pension on, say, 31 October 2022, and received the first payment into their bank on 21 November, amounting to 3 full 4-weekly payments, plus 1 day, representing 31 October, then how is that viewed by HMRC? Do they include only the 3 full weeks on their tax return, or is it the actual amount to which they were entitled (which is also the amount received as payment was within the tax year)? I ask because the amount pre-populated on their tax return is lower than my calculation of the entitlement by exactly 1/7 x £ weekly amount, i.e. the SA system has not counted 31 October 2022. Is there a reason for that?

Thanks. I am comfortable with the SA106 position, as we have been doing it for several years now, but was hoping that my wife and I could come off SA now that we no longer have UK property rental income. Oh well, at least I know well in advance that we will continue to have the joy of each of us completing a return each year. Also tell Jea7 that they too can look forward to a SA return each year...

Can I ask how HMRC's systems deal with the part week during which the pension commences? e.g. under the new state pension, the amount of benefit is apportioned in the week in which the pension starts and for the week of death. This is a change from how the pension was paid for those reaching pension age before April 2016. I ask because the amount pre-populated by HMRC on a friend's return is exactly 1/7 x weekly amount less than their actual new state pension entitlement for the last tax year and their pension started on day 7 of a pension week during the tax year, meaning they were entitled to, and received, 1 day plus 3 weeks in the first 4-week payment schedule.

 You make the election by reference to a particular tax year and it remains effective until you rescind it. Have a look at the "forms" tab on the RIA website (I cannot post links), either in English or German, and submit a "Antwortformular englisch - Reply slip" form. Re your question to HMRC about the informing them of the pension, if you submit a UK tax return, Page FN8 of the Foreign Notes to SA106 say "If you have a pension that’s not taxable in the UK because of a DTA, give full details of the pension’s payer, pension and relevant DTA in the ‘Any other information’ box on your tax return. " I take that to mean that one should put the same text in the "any other info box" every time one submits a return. It will be interesting to learn from HMRC what the process is if you are not in SA and/or if, having been in SA, HMRC agree that tax returns are no longer necessary.

Jea7, I communicate via e-mail but you need attachments to be in PDF and a few other limited formats - it will complain if you get it wrong. You will get 2 tax ID numbers. One is issued by RiA when they know you exist, so sending the form, absent a number, with a covering email should cover both bases. The other number is the newer Tax ID number that is intended to stay with you when you change tax offices (akin to our tax numbers) and will be issued in due course by the central tax office - you should not need to do anything to get this but it can take months - many months. But once you are in contact with RiA, you'll probably get an allocated caseworker and also be asked to complete an email authority form.

Kalim, I have just noticed your post. I am not sure why RiA is after a form UNLESS you are electing for the tax fiction of being treated as tax resident in Germany (unbeschraengt steuerpflichtig) to give access to the German personal allowance (Grundfreibetrag) and other German allowances. This is only available for people if, either 90% of their worldwide income is from German sources, or the amount of worldwide income that is not taxable in Germany (because of the tax treaty) is LESS than the German personal allowance - that non-German income would then feed into the rate at which you pay tax in Germany. Otherwise you are beschraengt steuerpflichtig (limited liability), and are simply taxed on your entire pension, other than the tax free element and an general allowance worth 102€. If you opt for Amtsveranlagung, then RiA wimply deals with all this but you do need to send them the relevant forms - none of which need to be signed/stamped by HMRC.

Not something HMRC can comment on. Germany does not operate a self-assessment regime and do not issue a notice to file a ruturn - you are simply under a legal obligation to submit a return by 31 May (I think), unless you ask RiA to undertake an Amtsveranlagung (assessment by RiA without a tax return). I would strongly recommend asking RiA to assess you, After they receive your return or undertake the Amtsveranlagung, they will send you a Steuerbescheid (tax assessment), against which you can appeal if you choose. That will set out your income, tax-free pension element, the tax due and the payment date. It makes clear that the exchange rate risk is yours and that is payment is not received by the due date, then interest will be payable. I started to receive my pension in 2022 and have opted for Amtsveranlagung. My payment date was 19 July. I have opted to pay by direct debit as this means you cannot miss the payment date (which I think is a given period after the assessment is issued, unlike the UK with fixed dates for everyone!). All of the forms you need are on the RiA website.

We seem to be going round in circles here. Can you please set out how Article 18(2)(b) applies when a Spanish national, resident in Spain, receives a UK Government Service pension. My understanding is that in those circumstances, taxing rights revert to Spain and HMRC may require a form as proof. Similarly, when the same person has both British and Spanish nationality, the would still fall within Article 18(2)(b). This is not only an issue relating to Spain. I am aware of people in Germany suffering double taxation on UK Government Service pensions because they have taken German citizenship, the German authorities are contending that they fall foul of this Article, yet HMRC sometimes gives and NT code and is sometimes refusing for people with the same residence and nationalities.